Post by: DeathAdder on October 3, 2003 10:24 pm CDT
Post by: jake-hell on October 4, 2003 12:32 am CDT
Post by: LastWish on October 4, 2003 07:24 am CDT
I think I'm going to switch to DSL, because I'm sick of my cable going out.. my cable goes out at least once every 2 weeks, and almost ALWAYS at the most annoying times...
Post by: LastWish on October 4, 2003 07:25 am CDT
Quote from: "DeathAdder"
Giving ppl admins might was the worst F***ing thing you could have done!!!!!!!!>: ( the whole server turned into a Pk'ing zone glitching/blocking fest, goose2, thief, muggz, were blocking uber with a tent so ppl would get stuf and than target them and kill them and they wouldn't let us get our stuff. You really should have thought this through. so now you have 3 ppl being the biggest dicks in the world and ruining the game. Thanx for letting them F*** my char up. ^_^ :( )
How did they fork your char up? I'll be administering punishment in the harshest manner possible, and as quickly as possible.
Post by: Particle on October 4, 2003 08:11 am CDT
Post by: DeathAdder on October 4, 2003 11:32 am CDT
Heh not like i'll stop playing on your server either. It's a good server just can get out of control when there's no one to monitor whats going on.
Post by: DeathAdder on October 4, 2003 12:18 pm CDT
I'm sorry Muggz :'(
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 4, 2003 01:51 pm CDT
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 4, 2003 01:55 pm CDT
Post by: Particle on October 4, 2003 10:02 pm CDT
Post by: Newbie on October 4, 2003 10:47 pm CDT
Post by: LastWish on October 5, 2003 07:24 am CDT
Post by: Particle on October 5, 2003 09:34 am CDT
(http://http://www.pcrpg.org/pics/misc/goose.jpg)
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 5, 2003 10:03 am CDT
Post by: Particle on October 5, 2003 12:17 pm CDT
It's good enough for me, and that's good enough to act on.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 5, 2003 12:47 pm CDT
Post by: Newbie on October 5, 2003 04:55 pm CDT
Whenever somthing dramatic happens in the server I always get the blame simply because my name's "Thief" and because I steal alot.
Post by: -Icer- on October 5, 2003 05:53 pm CDT
Quote from: "Silvanoshei"
Yeah, but the only reason they accused Thief is because they're annoyed with him stealing, and they think stealing equates to zone-blocking. It could just as easily have been anyone else in that server. Your "testimonials" seem to be nothing more than people pointing fingers. If you don't have enough proof, you should try to either get more of it, or not have done anything at all. You basically wiped all of these characters just because of their reputations among people in the server.
Exactly.. Thank you Silv.
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 6, 2003 02:20 am CDT
Post by: Bice on October 6, 2003 02:54 pm CDT
Quote from: "goose_gooseling"
pretty shizzle system you got goin here if our characters are going to get cleared from some kid making a post like that with no proof whatsoever of it being mine, or their tent. just because u wanted to duel when that party was going on and i killed u doesnt mean u have blame me for zoneblocking. and even if someone took a ss of a tent blocking it off, how does that link it straight to us?
... I think thats a pretty convincing screen shot ...
+ i didnt get to use my admins might spell till LW got on the next day...
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 6, 2003 03:09 pm CDT
Post by: Bice on October 6, 2003 03:15 pm CDT
Quote from: "goose_gooseling"
and even if someone took a ss of a tent blocking it off, how does that link it straight to us?
Well i dont know,
You tell me.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 6, 2003 03:30 pm CDT
What people always assume that if a person does one thing to annoy them, then that automatically qualifies them for doing all things that annoy them. Pretty damn ridiculous.
What I fail to understand is why characters were cleared on this philosophy. And no, Bice, there is absolutely zero evidence in that screenshot to convict anyone in particular of zoneblocking. Not a single shred.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 7, 2003 02:12 pm CDT
Post by: LastWish on October 7, 2003 03:04 pm CDT
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 7, 2003 03:12 pm CDT
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 7, 2003 03:34 pm CDT
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 7, 2003 04:26 pm CDT
Post by: Newbie on October 7, 2003 06:14 pm CDT
Quote from: "LastWish"
When I talked to them, they didn't put up much of a fight because obviously they knew they had done something wrong.
Hmm, I don't recall having a conversation with you since I got cleared..
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 7, 2003 07:12 pm CDT
Post by: LastWish on October 7, 2003 09:27 pm CDT
I talked to muggz, and he didn't even care.. so that leaves one person (goose).
I don't know why Im arguing, I had nothing to do with this.. I wasn't there so I have absolutely no say in what happens.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 7, 2003 09:37 pm CDT
Post by: -Icer- on October 7, 2003 10:14 pm CDT
But I dont care to much now.. Although I definitely wouldn't mind having my char back
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 8, 2003 01:44 am CDT
Thiefery absolutely pisses me off to no end. Nobody ends up winning as eventually the thief is caught and punished and the stolen items are usually sold by the time they are caught, hence no compensation unless the owner paid insurance... which is bullmalarkey. ;-p Of course I could argue that some people have entirely too much crap, but that still wouldn't make stealing it right nescessarily. Take me for example; I have entirely too much crap, but it's that way because I spent a lot of time scrounging for parts and collecting things people have thrown away or given me over the years and taking care of said items rather than destroying them. I definately don't even have the money to buy a new anything, let a lone the time to go and gather the materials I would need in a natural setting and rebuild anything.
BUT... this is a GAME and being such you must realise that even if you are just GAMING you may still be going against a lot of the IN-GAMErs personal set of morals which they impact on the game themselfes. You should be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions in the GAME because it's just like reality TV; nobody is ever happy as long as someone doesn't fit everyone's ideas of a moral individual.
Perhaps a new strategy for Gaming is in order; people helping one an other rather than complaining to admins all the time?
Whoever isn't a bad guy should go up to Uber externally and cast some devestating spells on the roof or at the side (you can do it if you know how to get under the map) to squelch the people who're blocking the door. It may give the trapped people enough time to teleport out. Alternately, a high-level (or low but with ability) could also go into uber and Masstransit out the trapped people and perhaps the bad people (though I think you need to be in each others group to tele others away.)
Beep!
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 8, 2003 02:36 pm CDT
(And casting spells from outside Uber has nothing to do with going under the map.)
Post by: LastWish on October 8, 2003 02:59 pm CDT
I'm really not trying to be rude but I can't do anything about it.. I would if I could =/
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 8, 2003 03:20 pm CDT
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 8, 2003 03:41 pm CDT
Post by: Particle on October 8, 2003 05:56 pm CDT
BTW, for those folks that can't understand why I cleared all three:
- Of the three, I've talked to two. Both claim it was the other person.
- The ONLY proof in either direction is in the form of one screenshot.
- If nothing else, people are going to finally realize I WILL do something if rules are broken.
- I'd restore characters, but I have no way to know who is telling the truth, lying, or if they were all involved.
I'm going off what seems to be the general consensus. If I'm wrong, so be it. I don't want to intentionally wrong anybody, but sometimes it is unavoidable. The real test of character comes from those who were cleared. If they start over instead of pout, that shows real stamina and maturity. That's something I really respect. Don't let the server politics start to resemble the US's. Politics aren't required for a TRPG server in the first place. If these forums weren’t here, I doubt there would be any in the first place (that I would see). Call it a growing pain, take one for the team, or whatever your cliché of choice may be--move on, if you were unjustly cleared, take it as a fresh start.
Post by: Newbie on October 8, 2003 06:25 pm CDT
Quote from: "Particle"
- Of the three, I've talked to two. Both claim it was the other person.
Quote from: "Particle"
Goose just told be pretty much the same thing you did.
That was from a PM ^
You never said anything about Goose blaming me for putting up the tent..
I told you my side of the story, and it was the truth.
The only reason I don't want to start over.. is I got so much SP from the Keldrinite trade-in quest with Ozzy that I had a nice character with most stats maxed. And I know I'll never have an extremely good character again unless I spend days upon days of rebuilding it back again.
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 8, 2003 07:13 pm CDT
You said you would restore the characters, but you have no way of telling which one of us is telling the truth, lying, or if all of us were involved. There's no proof saying that ANY of us had anything to do with the blocking. So why should any of that matter? and again why should anyone have been cleared at all?
I think its a great idea to let people know that you will take action against rule breakers, but I think this was a bad situation to act on like that.
Also you said we should take this as a fresh start. I don't have the time to build up another character. I don't think you realize how long each remort takes with the new EXP system (especially the 1st remort). With school, homework, hockey, guitar lessons, etc, I just wouldn't have the time to make another character. Otherwise I wouldn't be saying anything more about this.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 8, 2003 08:27 pm CDT
Quote from: "Particle"
- The ONLY proof in either direction is in the form of one screenshot.And the only thing that screenshot proves is that a tent existed. So you basically just said that you have no proof.
Quote from: "Particle"
If nothing else, people are going to finally realize I WILL do something if rules are broken.So what, these guys get to be the scapegoats for everything amiss with the server just because they steal? Please.
Quote from: "Particle"
I'd restore characters, but I have no way to know who is telling the truth, lying, or if they were all involved.So why didn't you clear everyone in the server that night? Oh, right, because everyone else doesn't have a reputation for stealing (which is legal under circumstances anyway).
Quote from: "Particle"
I'm going off what seems to be the general consensus.And the only reason this "consensus" has spoken the way it did is because the three that were cleared weren't well liked. "I don't like him because he steals. That obviously means they did it!"
Quote from: "Particle"
The real test of character comes from those who were cleared. If they start over instead of pout, that shows real stamina and maturity.
So why not clear everybody and see how they react? Oh, right, again, they don't have a reputation for stealing.
Like I said before, what seems to be the only reason these individuals were cleared is because, "what better scapegoat than a person with a bad reputation?" There was no proof whatsoever pointing to any of these three individuals, and yet they were cleared.
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 9, 2003 01:15 am CDT
If the concensus among the players in the server blames it on yoou three, then you should be willing to accept the consequences for your actions which were percieved as immoral or evil from other characters in the server.
As I see the situation, much of your clearing and complaining for being cleared rests on the other players in the server who were allegedly blaming you, and there appears to be more of them than you 3 all claiming it was you three. Your moral standing with them may have influenced some of them to tell lies or expand the story beyond it's true limits, but that's because they felt they had something to fear or distrust about your 3 characters. When this incident happened and you three happened to be the ones around mugging and targeting and carrying on (even if nobody dealt any blows after targetting) you should expect that the other players would team up against you because of your moral standing with them.
As far as I can tell, your characters were cleared because the other players of the server had a problem with your morality system in game and felt it was effecting their game play negatively and thus took a single inciminating looking screenshot with a testimony to the server controller.
In your defense you had nothing other than your word because your resputation with the majority of the effected players was negative. Based on your actions you doomed yourselfes to be preyed upon by other seeking revenge for ill will they felt impacted them from you 3. By no means should you feel the victim in this case, as they acted out of the moral stance that you were their enemy, they were your victim, and their screenshot showed in action the problems they felt you should be punished for.
As Particle says; Take it in stride, start a new character and playe a new.
I would reccomend not stealing or targeting or killing any tent blocked people as this could easily happen to you 3 again.
If you must steal, do it in the obscure... when they're not expecting it ("training" endurance maybe) or when they are not all ready in a compromised position such as a tent block or fighting with a casting uber. Avoid confrontation like real thieves do; log off when you are targeted or shortly after you mug so they may forget you sooner if they notice, have a backup character if your main thief gets too "hot" for the server in recognition.
Play the thief character as if you were a thief, as if you would not like to be caught and would not like to be punished, like a true thief.
I still feel the best solution is not targeting and stealing from incapable players to begin with. ;-)
Peace!
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 9, 2003 12:16 pm CDT
Anyway, the idea of your post was that it was right for the people in the server to lie and accuse people whom they had no proof against. You can babble on about morals all you want; but what's moral about lying and accusing somebody of doing something they didn't? Eh? Stealing is legal, or did you miss that point? Just because the uneducated masses don't like it when they're stolen from, it does not give them the right to falsely accuse people that they have no information of.
As Particle has said many times before, this isn't a democracy. It's Particle's word. So why should this be the exception? Why should these players be cleared just because they're not liked? I don't like General, but should he be cleared? No.
Furthermore, what the hell do you expect them to have in defense? Should they be taking screenshots or demos of their activities, just in anticipation of being falsely accused? I should hope not, and that had better not be what you're suggesting.
Lastly, none of these players have been restored, none of the other suspects (being the entire server that night) were cleared, and the clears were not justified, which brings me back to a few posts ago. These players were cleared on a whim.
Post by: Newbie on October 9, 2003 02:07 pm CDT
Quote from: "Silvanoshei"
How did I "choose to ignore Particle's post"? I addressed it directly. I can't see how much farther away from 'ignore' that could be.
Anyway, the idea of your post was that it was right for the people in the server to lie and accuse people whom they had no proof against. You can babble on about morals all you want; but what's moral about lying and accusing somebody of doing something they didn't? Eh? Stealing is legal, or did you miss that point? Just because the uneducated masses don't like it when they're stolen from, it does not give them the right to falsely accuse people that they have no information of.
As Particle has said many times before, this isn't a democracy. It's Particle's word. So why should this be the exception? Why should these players be cleared just because they're not liked? I don't like General, but should he be cleared? No.
Furthermore, what the hell do you expect them to have in defense? Should they be taking screenshots or demos of their activities, just in anticipation of being falsely accused? I should hope not, and that had better not be what you're suggesting.
Lastly, none of these players have been restored, none of the other suspects (being the entire server that night) were cleared, and the clears were not justified, which brings me back to a few posts ago. These players were cleared on a whim.
I <3 you Silv. ;-)[/quote]
Are you trying to infer that I kill and steal from newbies?
Ask anyone on the server, I only house kill.. and I never steal from low levels (Unless they're above RL 10 and have good items on them).
To tell you the truth, I actually had quite a number of players that liked me.. Only the higher RL's didn't like me because I picked on them soley for the reason that they were more powerful than me (But I could out-duel them
). But I guess their opinion is what matters to Particle. Ask anyone on the server.. if I stole from them and they asked for it back 85% of the time I would give it back (Depending on how rare the item)
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 9, 2003 02:30 pm CDT
Missed- as in didn't understand in the way particle was trying to explain it to you.
Chose to ignore- as in; saw it was Particles name and ignored it (this was the sarcastic of the two.)
Morals- as in their minds built up a psychollogical defense based on what they percieved as a negative moral action (thievery) by your 3 characters against them. This psychological defense caused them to team up against you 3 to gather what was in the end percieved as inciminating evidence.
Wether or not thievery is LEGAL in the server, it still may be percieved as immoral. The idea of an RPG is not to enforce what people do, but for the people to role-play the roll and thus enforce it on their own, both thief and unthief alike.
Incapable- those who can't accept the rules as the rules and those who would gather "evidence" to inciminate you 3 because they feel vengefull. I always avoid people who complain about everything. I don't help them and I don't harm them, and if they try to get me involved in a duel/fight or thievery, I go to an other zone, or load up a different character. (well, I used to do all of these things.)
No matter what is said for thieves in TRPG I still stand by these ideas:
Quote
If you must steal, do it in the obscure... when they're not expecting it ("training" endurance maybe) or when they are not all ready in a compromised position such as a tent block or fighting with a casting uber. Avoid confrontation like real thieves do; log off when you are targeted or shortly after you mug so they may forget you sooner if they notice, have a backup character if your main thief gets too "hot" for the server in recognition.
Play the thief character as if you were a thief, as if you would not like to be caught and would not like to be punished, like a true thief.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 9, 2003 02:52 pm CDT
Quote from: "Lidge Farkley"
Missed- as in didn't understand in the way particle was trying to explain it to you.I understood him just fine. If you think that I didn't, then why don't you explian it better?
Quote from: "Lidge Farkley"
Morals- as in their minds built up a psychollogical defense based on what they percieved as a negative moral action (thievery) by your 3 characters against them. This psychological defense caused them to team up against you 3 to gather what was in the end percieved as inciminating evidence.For one thing, none of these characters are mine. In fact, I haven't step foot in this server since it was cleared. I'm fighting because I believe this to be wrong. Secondly, it really doesn't matter why they accused the cleared individuals, since no matter how you slice it, the bottom line is that they did. And they did it with no proof. You can explain philosophy and psychology all you want; it doesn't change the fact that they just pointed fingers without proof.
Quote from: "Lidge Farkley"
The idea of an RPG is not to enforce what people do, but for the people to role-play the roll and thus enforce it on their own, both thief and unthief alike.
What does clearing have to do with role-playing? Clearing should have nothing to do with role-playing; it should be completely objective and devoid of morals. If you want to PK someone because they stole, then go ahead. Clearing is a different story.
The bottom line is, you think these characters should be cleared because stealing is immoral. Blah blah blah, people will try to strike back against these thieves. But we're not arguing something done to do with RPG, are we? No. We're not. The topic today is clearing, which has nothing to do with morals. Got it?
(Besides, as I've said before: what the hell is moral about lying and deleting people's hard work on a whim?)
Post by: Particle on October 9, 2003 05:16 pm CDT
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 9, 2003 05:45 pm CDT
Quote from: "Silvanoshei"
The only point left to this thread is to make it clear that these characters were cleared on a whim, not because they actualy did anything wrong.
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 9, 2003 06:55 pm CDT
Quote
The bottom line is, you think these characters should be cleared because stealing is immoral. Blah blah blah, people will try to strike back against these thieves. But we're not arguing something done to do with RPG, are we? No. We're not. The topic today is clearing, which has nothing to do with morals. Got it?I never said that. I said that because the players that were pointing fingers felt that they were being treated immorally, they teamed up to use an outside source to punish you.
What I am saying is: If someone is going to be a theif, regardless of the legality of their actions according to the rules, they should expect people to gang up on them to get their characters punished for not liking their actions however messed up that may be.
Quote
The idea of an RPG is not to enforce what people do, but for the people to role-play the roll and thus enforce it on their own, both thief and unthief alike.This was said in support of your situation and was followed up by the reitteration of how to avoid getting a bunch or inept peope to gang up on and destroy you.
Quote
I understood him just fine.
Once again I am not trying to be a jerk or anything like that, but I'm saying that if you understood him then you'd understand that he felt he had ample evidence to do what he did and that he didn't feel it was on a whim. --at least, that's what it looks like he said to me. ;-)
I'm not arguing against you man, I'm trying to rationalize what happened so we can avoid this type of character clearing occurence in the future.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 9, 2003 07:05 pm CDT
Anyway, he said himself that the only piece of evidence he had was that screenshot, which doesn't prove anything. I don't understand how that is "ample" evidence. Care to explain?
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 9, 2003 10:41 pm CDT
Quote
he felt he had ample evidence
I cannot explain how Particle felt.
Based on the dictionary.com results, I would not say he acted on a whim as it wasn't impulsive. He appeared to have a reason that was enough to cause him to do what he did.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=whim (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=whim)
also adding arbitrary...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arbitrary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arbitrary)
as they use each other to describe each other, and in arbitrary it points to whim and arbitrary as being acting with out thought or reason.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 10, 2003 01:39 pm CDT
Quote from: "Lidge Farkley"
with out thought or reason.
Enough said.
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 10, 2003 03:04 pm CDT
Quote
he felt he had ample evidence
He thought he had reason in evidence to do what he did at the time.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 10, 2003 03:17 pm CDT
The only evidence he had was a screenshot that proves nothing. How is that "ample evidence"? It's not. Just because he cleared them does not mean "he felt he had ample evidence", because he had none. He had none. He had none. He had none. He had none.
If you don't get it this time, I'm not repeating it again.
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 10, 2003 03:37 pm CDT
He obviously thought he had a reason to do it. If he didn't think he had a reason, we both know, he wouldn't have done the clearing. So obviously this leaves him thinking he had a reason as the only possibility.
We don't know what he was thinking of how he felt, but we cannot tell him he had no reason if he himself thought at the time of the clearing that he had a reason to do the clearing. It would be illogical for him to clear 3 characters at random as you keep insisting.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 10, 2003 03:59 pm CDT
Post by: Lidge Farkley on October 10, 2003 06:41 pm CDT
Well, I read them the first time and I read them again. All of the responses I gave make sense in their context... so I don't know what else to say.
Perhaps neither one of us is addressing the same issue, or we both are addressing it in manners that don't work together for a discussion of the issue.
If that is the case then the discussion is at a stoped point and I have nothing further to add or say as we are not on the same issue.
Peace.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 10, 2003 06:44 pm CDT
Post by: goose_gooseling on October 10, 2003 08:15 pm CDT
I tried to reason with him at first. For some unknown reason, he wanted proof that it WASN'T my tent, instead of having proof that it WAS my tent.
I find it a little ironic that he's one to critisize Bush's decisions.
Post by: Silvanoshei on October 10, 2003 09:26 pm CDT