Post by: Fusor on March 29, 2003 12:13 am CST
Post by: UnderGod on March 29, 2003 12:57 am CST
Post by: Silvanoshei on March 29, 2003 11:31 am CST
Post by: Particle on March 29, 2003 11:32 am CST
Post by: Fusor on March 29, 2003 11:34 am CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 11:37 am CST
Post by: Particle on March 29, 2003 11:45 am CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 12:00 pm CST
Post by: UnderGod on March 29, 2003 12:33 pm CST
Tower shields would allways block your view unless you had it on your side.
Post by: Razore on March 29, 2003 01:02 pm CST
Post by: Fusor on March 29, 2003 01:59 pm CST
Post by: Khorne on March 29, 2003 03:29 pm CST
Post by: Particle on March 29, 2003 04:56 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 07:15 pm CST
The gladius was a decent stabbing weapon but a MUCH more effective slashing weapon. One reason for this was that it lacked a blood groove. This meant that once it was stabbed into someone, the suction made extraction a difficult endeavor which left you open to attacks. true, gladiators used it in the arena, but it saw MUCH more use on the battlefield. This is becaus it was a variation on the greek hoplite. When a legion or any smaller section of it moved, they moved in unisen so that even their steps were in time. It is no wonder that it is said the very ground would tremble at the approach of the legions. this is because of the weight of thousands of feet hitting the ground at once. the ranks were so close together that by block with the shield and slashing with the sword was the most effective manner.
as a side note, the gladiators armed with the partial armor and gladius lost 7 out of 10 times to the ratarius who was armed with the net and trident. This was because the gladius was generally a poor one on one weapon. Maybe this is why most gladiators were not armed with them. they are just most often pictured as this because the gladius is most often associated with rome and the arenas with rome as well. this leads to people mispercieving the gladius as being the only weapon used by romans in any way.
Of course, the 2 polearms would have been spent on the way into grips. one a heavy long spear, the other, the pilus, had a long thin metal shaft the could be bent to deprive an opponant of their sheild and allow the legionare to just slash them open.
I have been using and studying ancient weapons since 1983 and for the last 5 years, have taken carefull notes on the historians who have studied this from the historical perspective. previously, i had done some historical studying on my own with a LOT of actual practice to see what would actually work firsthand.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 07:17 pm CST
Post by: Particle on March 29, 2003 07:20 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 07:44 pm CST
(true, it did lighten the blade, but that was a secondary benifit)
The same principle applies to shaft weapons. And example is when i shot my buddy with a blowgun dart. the dart went in and the blood stuck in the wound made retracting the dart very difficult. he had to actuall pull it out and this was difficult. the suction held the dart in as long as it could. the flesh around it was actually sticking to the dart because of this suction. The instant the point finally made it out, you could actually hear the pop of the suction seal being broken and the blood immediately started shooting out of the wound like a water gun.
Trust me, I know my stuff on this.
Post by: Crash on March 29, 2003 07:45 pm CST
Also, if we are going for correctness.... a rapier isn't a katana. It is a dagger.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 08:00 pm CST
A katana is a slashing/cleaving weapon.
a rapier is designed for small light cuts and single thrust kills. They did not need blood grooves due to the fact that after the single killing stab, you would have planty of time to extract the blade. the secondary side effect of the lighness of a blade with a blood groove was not needed either due to the thinness of the blade and the lighter balence.
the styles of use between a katana and a rapier are thus entirely different although I have found that it IS possible to use a bastardized version of elizabethian style fencing using a katana if you have the reach. However, it is impossible to return the favor with the rapier due to the shortness of the hilt and the style of the hilt on most rapiers (they had a hand gaurd that extended from the basket or dish or whatevr style "crosshilt" was used to the pommel. Although, a rapier COULD be modified for the purpose since they used a rattail tang or partial tang. just remove the blade from the hilt and attach it to a long hilt that could hold both hands and you would have a very fast weapon that could be very usefull. (although i prefer a full tang on my blades.)
Post by: Crash on March 29, 2003 08:12 pm CST
I have heard many different people, who I would consider respectable in their knowledge of hand to hand combat, say that the blood groove is there only for lightning the weapon. Saying it made blood flow easier was just a myth.
My comment about the rapier was a refrence to the ingame modle of the rapier looking like a katana. I didn't say that either had/needed a blood groove, hence the space between the two different statements.
Post by: Crash on March 29, 2003 08:18 pm CST
http://www.agrussell.com/rec.knives/bloodgroove.html (http://www.agrussell.com/rec.knives/bloodgroove.html)
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 08:33 pm CST
I have seen this firsthand and know it for truth.
about the katana, im sorry for my mistaking you on that.
But on the bloodgroove and shield thing, I have been studying these things firsthand and actually practicing it since 1983. Like I said earlier, I may be "stupid on many of the things you talk about here but this is something that I am actually knowledgeable about and can fully support my stand.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 08:42 pm CST
When a blade stabs. i mean purely stabs, there is no cutting and a suction is indeed created. NOW, if you move the blade forward and backward it will break that seal as the opening of the wound is "cut" so that it is larger than the blade allowing it to "bleed" around it.
in testing the theory, the testers have ample time to cut the wound out in this fashion and do it as a matter of course without realizing what they are doing. In combat, a soldier does not have the time to perform the extra movements to do this.
However, I will acknowledge that to a degree, both of our arguments are fully valid. Yours from the technical aspect and me from the application aspect. So perhaps we can settle this as us BOTH being right and it being a matter of "the chicken and the egg".
Post by: Crash on March 29, 2003 09:39 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 10:10 pm CST
Post by: eViL on March 29, 2003 10:25 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 29, 2003 10:33 pm CST
I dont know about the others, but I am an expert on this subject and LOVE to discuss it at length. You are the coding expert, I am the ancient weapons and warfare expert.
Post by: Crash on March 29, 2003 10:48 pm CST
Post by: Particle on March 30, 2003 12:08 am CST
I will trust one studying for 27 years over one studying for 21 years. I still don't believe that the groove helps you take your blade out of somebody. Nothing against you personally, but my judgment, logic, physics, and somebody with more experience seem to agree.
Post by: Darwin on March 30, 2003 12:31 am CST
Post by: Dirk on March 30, 2003 12:54 am CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 30, 2003 01:06 am CST
A dart gun is also the same thing. A piece of metal pierces the skin. The ONLY difference is that a dart does not have an edge with which to cut the hole larger than the original pierce did.
As I stated before, I know nothing about coding, computers or even know enough to discuss the pros and cons of handguns. But when it comes to ancient weapons and their useage, I do know my stuff and am fully able to prove my statements (as I clearly have here).
Post by: UnderGod on March 30, 2003 01:18 pm CST
You are saying you have firsthand experience.. So you actually stabbed a man with a gladius that didn't have a blood grove to see if this was true?
Darts don't count... They are thrown..
If I were to throw a sword at you blood grove or not, if it didn't split you in half, it would be almost impossible to pull out.
Post by: Particle on March 30, 2003 01:22 pm CST
Post by: UnderGod on March 30, 2003 01:35 pm CST
He keeps replying to all of your posts saying he has first hand experience with all of this..
So according to what he said, He should have first hand experience in stabbing with a weapon.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 30, 2003 01:58 pm CST
As for darts, they ARE the same thing with the single exception that there is no edge to widen the wound beyond the original puncture. In ALL other respects, it IS the same. A piece of metal sticking into the flash from an outside force. think of it this way, it is the same principle of a throwing axe cleaving into its target. a 2 handed battle axe cleaves into the target the same way. it is an outside weapon entering its target. the propulsion of said weapon is irrelevant. the act of it entering the "body" is the same and has the same effect.
I dont tell you the principles of coding because I am inexperienced in it. I expect the same courtesy from you. Think of it this way, you can lord it over me that in today's world, your expertise is more usefull than mine.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 30, 2003 02:01 pm CST
Post by: Particle on March 30, 2003 05:29 pm CST
Quote from: "UnderGod"
I never said that Part..
He keeps replying to all of your posts saying he has first hand experience with all of this..
So according to what he said, He should have first hand experience in stabbing with a weapon.
I was actually talking to EVIL_INC. Sorry for the mixup.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 30, 2003 06:00 pm CST
It's sad that the one time a topic comes up that I actually AM an expert on, everyone wants to stomp on me and tell me how stupid I am and that I am telling lies about things that I have seen with my own eyes to be truth.
When I say I have firsthand experience, I mean firsthand experience. I have seen this to be true with my own eyes. When you see fire, you KNOW its going to be hot. This is because you have probobly gotten burned at some point in time beforehand and thus learned through firsthand experience that it is hot.
If you choose to continue thinking that I know nothing at all about hand weapons or their use, by all means, its your right to do so. I just wouldnt bet my life on it if I were you should the need ever arise. If you do, then it could be a painfull lesson to see that I was right.
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 30, 2003 06:00 pm CST
It's sad that the one time a topic comes up that I actually AM an expert on, everyone wants to stomp on me and tell me how stupid I am and that I am telling lies about things that I have seen with my own eyes to be truth.
When I say I have firsthand experience, I mean firsthand experience. I have seen this to be true with my own eyes. When you see fire, you KNOW its going to be hot. This is because you have probobly gotten burned at some point in time beforehand and thus learned through firsthand experience that it is hot.
If you choose to continue thinking that I know nothing at all about hand weapons or their use, by all means, its your right to do so. I just wouldnt bet my life on it if I were you should the need ever arise. If you do, then it could be a painfull lesson to see that I was right.
Post by: Razore on March 30, 2003 06:09 pm CST
/me knows its hot
Post by: Sabby on March 30, 2003 06:17 pm CST
Post by: eViL on March 30, 2003 06:22 pm CST
Post by: Sabby on March 30, 2003 06:22 pm CST
Quote from: "eViL"
....your observant.....not too quick though...
Who?
Post by: Darwin on March 30, 2003 06:33 pm CST
Post by: Crash on March 30, 2003 10:35 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 30, 2003 10:42 pm CST
I dont know WHY it happens, just that it DOES.
Post by: Crash on March 30, 2003 11:42 pm CST
Post by: Darwin on March 30, 2003 11:59 pm CST
Post by: Jason_Xero on March 31, 2003 12:42 am CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 31, 2003 12:44 am CST
Anyway, YEs, I have stuck a sword in someone as well as a dart. I used the dart as an example to show how having the edge on a sword is different from not having an edge to cut the wound wider.
The suction created DOES indeed make the blade harder to pull out.
Post by: Jason_Xero on March 31, 2003 12:51 am CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 31, 2003 01:05 am CST
Anyway, untill someone comes to west virginia and shows me some miracle blade that ignores the laws of physics, I will believe the words of experts who have studied the art of war for decades and what I have seen with my own 2 eyes in my own 20 years of study in the subject.
Post by: UnderGod on March 31, 2003 01:09 am CST
You are ALL wrong...
The blood grove is designed to send a radio signal to a satalite.. From there the satalite sends a sigal to a photon beam gun light years away..
The photon beam gun shoots across light years to the designated target.. From then, it kills the target and makes it magnetic to ancient weapons..
That is why you can't pull it out..
I are teh pwn j00
All your base are belong to me!
Post by: Particle on March 31, 2003 09:01 am CST
Post by: Knyght on March 31, 2003 11:08 am CST
Post by: UnderGod on March 31, 2003 11:46 am CST
It was herm... gah.. it has been years.
Post by: Crash on March 31, 2003 05:12 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 31, 2003 05:18 pm CST
However, this time they got something right.
Post by: Silvanoshei on March 31, 2003 05:50 pm CST
Quote from: "Crash"
EVIL, we didn't say you were stupid. Just that from all my learnings from people who have devoted their lives to ancient weaponry, these people have told me that the blood groove doesn't make any difference. If you stab someone, there can't be a suction. Would you like to hear my reasoning behind this? If you shove an object in someones body, air must either escape, or compress. If it can escape, then there is another opening somewhere that would make it so there is no suction. If there is no opening, then the air and organs in the body would simply move out of the way, making a pushing of sorts on the blade. Suction is caused by high pressure on the outside, and low pressure on the inside. Teach me how this low pressure got there, and I will stop argueing.
Your reasoning is messy... Just think of a conventional bathroom plunger.
Post by: Knyght on March 31, 2003 06:24 pm CST
Quote from: "UnderGod"
I think Batman Returns didn't have catwoman in it...
It was herm... gah.. it has been years.
It did.
Post by: Fusor on March 31, 2003 06:40 pm CST
The knife description says some stuff...
Post by: Particle on March 31, 2003 07:15 pm CST
Post by: EVIL_INC on March 31, 2003 08:06 pm CST
Post by: Razore on March 31, 2003 09:59 pm CST
Quote
Anyway, untill someone comes to west virginia and shows me some miracle blade that ignores the laws of physics, I will believe the words of experts who have studied the art of war for decades and what I have seen with my own 2 eyes in my own 20 years of study in the subject.
....Ever heard of the Miracle Blade series 3? They can cut thru anything and be pulled out like its nothing.....go look it up
*edit* this quote is bullmalarkey, you cant ever get it to say EVIL_INC POSTED:*/edit*
Post by: Jonah on March 31, 2003 10:35 pm CST
Post by: UnderGod on April 1, 2003 02:23 am CST
At least Razore has finally reached a new level of intelligence and edited instead of double posting.
Post by: Razore on April 1, 2003 11:26 am CST
Post by: Hack-N-Slash on April 1, 2003 11:39 am CST
Quote from: "Silvanoshei"
Quote from: "Crash"EVIL, we didn't say you were stupid. Just that from all my learnings from people who have devoted their lives to ancient weaponry, these people have told me that the blood groove doesn't make any difference. If you stab someone, there can't be a suction. Would you like to hear my reasoning behind this? If you shove an object in someones body, air must either escape, or compress. If it can escape, then there is another opening somewhere that would make it so there is no suction. If there is no opening, then the air and organs in the body would simply move out of the way, making a pushing of sorts on the blade. Suction is caused by high pressure on the outside, and low pressure on the inside. Teach me how this low pressure got there, and I will stop argueing.
Your reasoning is messy... Just think of a conventional bathroom plunger.
heh...attach the end of an icepick to a plunger..