Author Topic: Peltier Opinion  (Read 4656 times)

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Darwin

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Peltier Opinion
« on: August 17, 2006 02:09 pm CDT »
So, I'm crazy, and I am ready to move on from regular-old boring waterblocks to water cooled peltier blocks.

For my GPU, what do you think?:  http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=134

And for the CPU:  http://www.cooltechnica.com/Merchant2/m ... ode=DD-TEC

For the cpu, I think I'll opt for a lower power draw (perhaps 55w).  

Do you think my setup (koolance exos setup using 3/8 tubing) will be able to handle the load?  Should my PSU be able to handle it as well (Antec 550w) at full load?

I really want to do this.  Only thing that is holding me back is that I'd like to offset the energy.  Perhaps I'll buy a 1kw peak turbine  :roll:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Darwin »



KoRo

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« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006 03:13 pm CDT »
They look the same as any water cooling block i've ever seen. How are they better?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by KoRo »

Lidge Farkley

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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006 03:53 pm CDT »
Quote from: "KoRo"
They look the same as any water cooling block i've ever seen. How are they better?


A peltier cooling device can evacuate heat from a surface and cause the opposite side of the surface to be cooled quite nicely.  A standard cooling block just has water running through a heat sink with out a peltier system.

Particle will have more information for you shortly.
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KoRo

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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006 03:55 pm CDT »
Is that by design? Or does it use some special material..?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by KoRo »

Darwin

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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006 03:56 pm CDT »
One side of a peltier (look for a google image) gets very cold, while the other gets very hot.  To cool the hot side of the peltier, you use liquid cooling.  

With more advanced peltiers (I'd say 120w or above) you can get CPU and VGA devices below freezing temperatures.  Now, this can cause condensation problems should you not insulate the area well enough, but done right a peltier system can cool like crazy.  And with that cooling capacity, you can push devices even further.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Darwin »



Particle

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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006 04:49 pm CDT »
Peltiers are a tricky lot.  They're kind of like water cooling was five or so years ago as far as being exotic and tricky.

Traditional cooling methods for electronics rely on the air surrounding the device for cooling.  These methods are known as passive cooling.  This includes nothing (bare circuits), heatsinks, and water cooling.

A device with no specific heat removing device on it just relies on its packaging to dissipate enough heat.  A heatsink helps this process by providing more surface area with its fins.  The increased contact area with the surrounding air helps it to dissipate the heat of whatever it's attached to.  This is the type most often used with processors, currently.  Water cooling is just like a ginormous heatsink.  The physical waterblock that makes contact with the hot device is smaller than high performance heatsinks and absorbs heat into the water instead of a metal fin structure.  However, the heat in the water is transferred to a radiator (with a lot more contact area than a normal heatsink--thus its attractive cooling potential) where the heat is transferred to the surrounding air.  Even though there is a pump, that isn't active cooling.  Water cooling is essentially just a big heatsink with the bulk of the dissipating material moved to a remote location.

None of those methods cools a device below the temperature of that air that surrounds the device (or radiator).  In order of cooling potential, it's almost always (least to greatest):  bare, heatsink, water cooling.

There are also two types of persistent active cooling common in computers.  These types are phase change and thermoelectric.  Phase change is just a fancy name for the system of cooling your air conditioner works.  A refrigerant gas is inside a hermetic tubing system with an evaporator (the cold coil), a compressor (like a pump for water cooling systems, sort-of), and a condenser (the hot, dissipating coil).  The thing about refrigerant gases is that when they expand, they absorb heat.  They have the potential to go below room temperature by this process--which is both why it is appealing and also why it is dangerous.  By continuing to drop a device below the temperature of the air which surrounds it, water can condense on that device's surface.  It's important to insulate this type of cooling or strictly regulate it because of that danger.  Insulating the device expands that temperature gradient enough to where water won't condense on the surface of the insulating material, inside the insulation itself (no moisture or outlet in closed cell foam [don't use an open cell foam]), or on the surface of the device (it's as cold as the insulation surrounding it).  Insulation just plays a trick with the temperature difference to keep the dew point down at each level if enough insulation is used.  The gas expands at a coil at the device, absorbing its heat and reducing the temperature at that point.  The cold, expanded gas travels to the compressor where it is condensed in conjunction with the condenser coil back to a liquid.  That warm liquid gas returns to the evaporator where the process starts over again.  It's kinda funny--people thing the cold line goes into their house and the hot one comes out on their air conditioners.  It's the other way around in reality, as odd as it seems without knowing why.  :P

The other type of active cooling is called thermoelectric (aka peltier).  In this method, two dissimilar metals form lots of small junctions.  This is commonly sandwiched between two plates.  When a DC electric current is applied, the heat from one side (one of the metal types) is transferred to the other (the other type of metal used).  In theory, a TEC is capable of creating a 69 degree Celsius temperature difference between its two sides.  Also, reversing the DC current (switch polarity) will cause the hot and cold sides to swap.  A TEC is not a very efficient device when comapred to phase change.  They output both the electrical energy applied to them as well as any heat moved.  However, a TEC is a comparatively simple device that requires no gasses to operate, no noisy compressor, or sealed metal tubing.  They do not leak, vibrate, or have the potential to poison their user like refrigerant based systems do.  TECs must, however, be well cooled in order to work effectively, and they can easily burn out if inadequately cooled.  For this reason, high performance cooling systems in computers using a TEC often cool the hot side of the junction with water cooling.  As with phase change, proper insulation or regulation of the device is vital to safe functionality.

The appeal of low temperatures with computer components is that silicon based devices can operate at higher frequencies the lower their temperature.  Temperature and clock speeds are not a magical reverse relationship.  Making something twice as cold does not mean it will run twice as fast.  The relationship is inverse logarithmic.

I can give more detailed information if you want it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Particle »
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slorge_gridlock

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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006 07:29 pm CDT »
Did someone say "Peltzer"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by slorge_gridlock »

Darwin

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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006 09:37 pm CDT »
Alright.  Here's one. How much further do you think I could push my video card using liquid cooling?

ATI 9800XT
Stock speeds: 378/338
O/C with water:  450/375

*edit*
Somebody online reported speeds of 500/400 on his 9800pro with a peltier.  Not bad.

What I'm looking forward to is overclocking potential on my next generation of computer components (will probably buy next year).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Darwin »



Particle

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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006 10:29 pm CDT »
A Radeon 9000 series card isn't worth the effort these days.

Active cooling is time consuming, tricky, and expensive.  It's also hazardous to the health of equipment for two main reasons:
1)  Radically reduces component life (if you overclock it that is)
2)  Even a small failure in insulation material can cause component failure (or worse)

It really just isn't worth it currently.  You can easily double the power consumption of your computer with TECs.  That's a lot of electricity right there just to run your cooling.  Your computer will also be drawing more when overclocked.  Additionally, if you have air conditioning, it will consume more energy as well to cool the heat put off by your computer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Particle »
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Darwin

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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006 10:39 pm CDT »
Thats where I hang myself.  I'd hate myself to be using so much more energy using TECs when I could get a much better performance increase using newer electronics which are pretty efficient as far as performance-per-watts is concerned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Darwin »



Particle

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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2006 10:30 am CDT »
A typical PC (overclocked) consumes between 200-250 watts idle.  I know this because I measured my own once with a watt meter. :)

What I'm getting at here is that a high end peltier setup for your CPU will consume about 250-300 watts by itself.  The power supplies aren't totally efficient, either, so you're looking at around 275-325 watts for that one TEC.  If you do your GPU, you're looking at around a 120w unit at least.  There is another 140-150 watts.

PC:  250 watts
TECs:  475 watts

It'll be even higher than that under load and higher still due to even more overclocking.

Typical energy costs would place that at about $28/mo just for your cooling.  If that's worth it to you, go for it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Particle »
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Darwin

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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2006 10:46 am CDT »
Hah, then I guess a cheaper solution would be to run my radiator through my minifridge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Darwin »



JayJay

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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2006 07:51 pm CDT »
Or......upgrade your system?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by JayJay »

Particle

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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2006 07:52 pm CDT »
Quote from: "JayJay"
Or......upgrade your system?


Bingo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Particle »
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Xenos

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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2006 08:08 am CDT »
Solution for the heat problem. Only use it in the winter. Save on heating costs and you get to use an overclocked computer too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969 06:00 pm CST by Xenos »