Dun dun dun dunnnnnn! (*whispers* Should we clear?)

[Particle]

This is an important subject.  Please take the time to read this information completely before posting or voting.

This is not a subject that I've ever taken lightly.  It is, however, on my mind for the first time in a LONG time.  The last two clears were technical--clears induced primarily through cheating.

I was starting work on a second-design AI/bot for the server and began to notice how quiet things were compared to how they used to be in "my day".  After one character finally showed up, we got to talking about how things are on the server.  You know, my bi-yearly update on what's happening.

What I learned was a bit concerning.  It seems that we no longer get new players.  They come, they play, and they quickly depart due (probably) to nobody being online.  Everyone is simply AFK.  This is not healthy for a game server.  It's not an IRC chatroom.

So, I am starting a vote.  This vote will not necessarily decide if we should clear or not.  It will, however, give me an idea of what you, the players...nay, AFKers want to see happen.

Why am I proposing a clear?  Mainly because it would force people to either play or leave.  As it is right now, everybody is remorted to a point where there is absolutely no challenge left in the game.  Naturally, such a circumstance would become boring.  I do understand why you're all AFK...I just hate to see it.  Even if some of you choose to leave at that point, we'll be better off.  After all, a quarter of the current player-base actually playing again is better than all but a twentieth of the player-base idling in the server all day.

This poll will run for the next 91 days as of November 1, 2007.  Why?  Because the light produced by our star on the day of the last clear will reach the Alpha Centauri system exactly one week afterward (when I would perform the clear if that's the route I decide on).

Please, don't JUST vote.  Please post what option you chose and most importantly--why.  If you don't post your vote and why, it will not be included in the final total.  (I will be compiling results based on the posts in this thread instead.)  As such, voting with smurf accounts is pointless.

[Particle]

All good points there, Inc.  Putting more time into development and expansion isn't a problem if there is a demand for it.  I would just have a problem spending the time on it if nobody ended up playing it.  Perhaps we should depart from the current map entirely.  Six years is too many on rpgmap5 imo.

[KoRo]

I'm on the fence about this. I spent so much time and put up with a lot of malarkey to get to where I am. Not that everyone else hasn't, It just seemed to take me 10x as long. And for that, I don't want to give up what I have.

At the same time, I was in the very same shoes as the low RL people, and I was in their shoes for a long time. I hate to see them having no options for zones or anything.

However, I would be MUCH more willing to play after the clear if there is an entirely new world to explore. New zones, new terrain (maybe ice?), new monsters, new sound fx, new music, new weapons....It's a lot of, but I think there's enough talent around here to work on that. Granted there is already a section for that, it is not widely advertised, and people are not being pushed to create new content.

I have created a few new possible weapons over the last year, but I never bothered submitting them. Perhaps now would be a good time to seriously consider pushing for massive amounts of new content?

[Kyrie]

Then, when you do finally manage to move them or get them out of the way, they come back and kill you off, steal everything you have ect ect.

Not really an issue that's going to be solved by clearing. You're always going to have jerks that do that.

A cap on the RL you can gain.

And what does the player do once they've hit that point? Max out to the max level? Then what? The remort system is a very good system: it means there is no 'end game' as the player can constantly improve himself. If you don't give players that opportunity they will need constant content updates or they will end up quitting.

Possibly more zones or a variety of things done to the map to make it "larger" for more zones.

We don't need a different map (not that I'm adverse to that idea) or a clear to do that. Corona has created three new zones, one of which has become permanent.

I remember a server long ago that had a teleport to an entirely different world map with it's own zones effectively doubling the map size

Or maybe not so long ago. It's called Sinister's Wasteland and Iceworld. I've already proposed an idea to extend gameplay that could work very well if properly implemented.

An afk check bot. Periodically, the bot send you a tell that you see. All you need do is say something in global to let it know your there. If you dont reply within a set period of time, you get booted from server.

It would take about 5 minutes to script around that.

I vote maybe. It depends: are we going to see some significant changes? If yes, then I vote yes. If no, then I vote no. I'd hate to see my 2500+ remorts go down the drain for no gain at all. I wouldn't quit, but I'd be disappointed.

Changes I'd like to see implemented:
-More admin options. I've been pulling for this for a while, but it can only be a good thing! Giving us more commands to play with will significantly increase the diversity of the quests we can create and entertain the players with.

-Major class overhaul. As it stands, the only difference between the classes is how quickly they can level up to about RL20 when they all become completely indistinguishable. 90% of noobs choose Mage when they start out, not realizing that it's the hardest class to start out as. Then, by the time they figure it out, they also figure out that the Ranger, Fighter, and Thief is exactly the same as they are.
Things that would be nice to see to differentiate the classes: class-only skills and weapons. I've got a few cool ideas I can put up if the decision ultimately comes to make these changes.

-Weapon/Item overhaul. This is something that's been asked for before, remove rusties and small stones. They serve no real purpose, it's impossible to make any real money selling them and all they do is kill noobs by weighing them down and take up item slots.

-Maxing out changes. I like the ability to decide between spending your time maxing out or remorting. But it takes way too long to get to the max level. I know it's not supposed to be an easy thing, but, -shannara- has been at it for over a year and he's only just now coming close to getting to level 1500 after mining nearly 24/7.

To sum up: I vote yes if we can see some significant changes. I vote no if there will be no significant changes. I won't quit either way.

[Kyrie]

All good points there, Inc.  Putting more time into development and expansion isn't a problem if there is a demand for it.  I would just have a problem spending the time on it if nobody ended up playing it.  Perhaps we should depart from the current map entirely.  Six years is too many on rpgmap5 imo.

The biggest problem is that Tribes has been dying for years. There just aren't that many new comers to the game, anymore. Maybe this is the time to pick up where we almost started with PCRPG: Source.

[KoRo]

I would go for PCRPG: Source, as I *finally* got myself a copy of HL2...just last weekend >.> (Best game I've ever played, btw)

[Kyrie]

Did you buy it as HL2 or did you get the Orange Box deal?
-This would go way off topic, so I'll start a new thread.

[Arf]

I have recently been lobbying Particle to reopen the HL2Rpg Project...  I had been reading up on the different ideas...  I have to agree with Rose on the server clear, i feel much the same way.  so I doesn't matter to me which way we go. I wont quit.  I will be a part of this gaming community for as long as i am able. Three concerns for now...

1) Character names...  will they be up for grabs or will we have some kind of ownership rights.

2) current administration...  admins, pk's, and the asshats that fill up the doghouse reports. I guess we will start from scratch lol...

3) Changes in the rules and game mechanics the will directly affect the game play...  

I was reading through the posts so far and most of my concerns and opinions have already been posted by someone else so i will not spam the post by repeating them.  I would just like to say  i will accept whatever changes that come and play on...  i am just damn glad to be here...  just for the record i vote yes

[Particle]

To the people I have quoted and responded to in this post:  Do not take this quote & point style of post as an argument.  I'm simply trying to provide feedback to questions that you all have raised.  I'm being open to all of you, since ultimately you are the people who will be playing.  This is your mod, not mine.

And what does the player do once they've hit that point? Max out to the max level? Then what? The remort system is a very good system: it means there is no 'end game' as the player can constantly improve himself.

It's a novel theory that JI and his collaborators had, but it has proven not to be so clear cut.  While in theory you can play forever without winning, functionally you do reach an end-game.  You reach a point where there's absolutely no motivation to play a character because there isn't any point to going from RL 400 to RL 405.  You aren't that much stronger, you don't get to do new things, etc.  You've hit the end of the road.  I would take it one step further even and say that the open-ended RL system leaves a person in limbo.  Without any end in sight, there is little motivation to start a new character and replay the game where it is actually challenging (low RL).  There is also no real signal to stop a character since the pointless RL number can increase forever.  That is why I think a RL cap is more of a good idea than a bad one.  If it were so simple to ensure everlasting gameplay, I'm sure more MMOs would have adopted a similar construct by now.  Sure, we're on a smaller scale but that doesn't mean that they don't have players in the same functional position--maxed out stats wise.  I have to agree with the big boys on this one.

If you don't give players that opportunity they will need constant content updates or they will end up quitting.

We're already there.  That theory has been shown to be inaccurate.  Not only that, but it drives away newcomers since the AFK RL Impossible players block them.  They also have no hope of ever catching up to the seasoned players.

We don't need a different map...

True, but I do think that a complete change of scenery will be a welcome change.  (Hint:  Any talented Tribes mappers out there?)  Fortunately, since I'm the primary host of the TRPG download I can slip the updates in for newcomers seamlessly.

It would take about 5 minutes to script around that.

Yes, that is true if I were just to say "AFK Check" and wait for movement.  There are more complicated methods that can seriously hinder anti-AFK-kicking counterscripts already on the drawing board.  This would give me a chance to implement them.

More admin options. I've been pulling for this for a while, but it can only be a good thing! Giving us more commands to play with will significantly increase the diversity of the quests we can create and entertain the players with.

Will you please elaborate on what exactly you would need as an admin to provide more entertaining quests, etc?

Major class overhaul. As it stands, the only difference between the classes is how quickly they can level up to about RL20 when they all become completely indistinguishable. 90% of noobs choose Mage when they start out, not realizing that it's the hardest class to start out as. Then, by the time they figure it out, they also figure out that the Ranger, Fighter, and Thief is exactly the same as they are. Things that would be nice to see to differentiate the classes: class-only skills and weapons. I've got a few cool ideas I can put up if the decision ultimately comes to make these changes.

I agree completely.  The class system was another novel approach by JI and his team, but it has turned out to not be sustainable.  I think it might be best to start everyone off the same and at some point (say, level 20 on RL0) allow a player to choose a more specialized class with its own abilities and such.

But it takes way too long to get to the max level. I know it's not supposed to be an easy thing, but, -shannara- has been at it for over a year and he's only just now coming close to getting to level 1500 after mining nearly 24/7.

Actually, being level 1500 wasn't intended to be possible in the first place.  The reason that levels stop there is that the function which computes level based on exp is a loop.  If it hasn't found a player's level by 1500, it exits to prevent excessive resources (or an infinite loop) from being consumed calculating a person or bot's level.  It's only a fluke that you don't auto-remort anymore beyond RL99.

The biggest problem is that Tribes has been dying for years. There just aren't that many new comers to the game, anymore. Maybe this is the time to pick up where we almost started with PCRPG: Source.

Yes, Tribes has been dying.  I've said before that I would never invest more time into Tribes development, but I'm in my tri-yearly "Let's fix some things." mood for some reason.  Also, it would be infinitely easier to beef up Tribes a little bit than it would be to start a fresh mod for Source.  So, even if we end up doing the Source thing, let's do a bit of work on Tribes first.  It's unlikely since I can't ever find any devs who are willing to actually commit.  They all say they will and then I never hear from them again.  I don't have the time or talent to do it all myself.  Heck, even game programming is outside of my strong area.  I primarily write database and communications software.  I can't do modeling at all, and I don't have the time to stay sharp at making prefabs, terrains, or maps.  If anything is to happen here, folks, I will need cooperation from people who can and are willing to do these things.

I would go for PCRPG: Source, as I *finally* got myself a copy of HL2...just last weekend >.> (Best game I've ever played, btw)

I agree.  HL2 was probably one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played.  Portal is also a surprisingly emotional experience.

[Particle]

I have recently been lobbying Particle to reopen the HL2Rpg Project...  I had been reading up on the different ideas...  I have to agree with Rose on the server clear, i feel much the same way.  so I doesn't matter to me which way we go. I wont quit.  I will be a part of this gaming community for as long as i am able. Three concerns for now...

1) Character names...  will they be up for grabs or will we have some kind of ownership rights.

2) current administration...  admins, pk's, and the asshats that fill up the doghouse reports. I guess we will start from scratch lol...

3) Changes in the rules and game mechanics the will directly affect the game play...  

I was reading through the posts so far and most of my concerns and opinions have already been posted by someone else so i will not spam the post by repeating them.  I would just like to say  i will accept whatever changes that come and play on...  i am just damn glad to be here...  just for the record i vote yes

As with the last two clears, I have a system that allows players to keep their character names.  You simply log into the server as normal and your character will have been cleared but it is still passworded.

As for the dog house, I would make a better system for reporting and recording infractions as part of the normal website.

[Kyrie]

The remort system is a very good system: it means there is no 'end game' as the player can constantly improve himself.

You reach a point where there's absolutely no motivation to play a character because there isn't any point to going from RL 400 to RL 405.  You aren't that much stronger, you don't get to do new things, etc.  You've hit the end of the road.  I would take it one step further even and say that the open-ended RL system leaves a person in limbo.

I can see your point, I guess I'm just different. The stept from rl400 to 405 shows no change, but 400 to 430 gives me a 30 point skill increase. That little thrill every 30 remorts keeps me going. I guess I'll have to work harder, now. I want to hit RL3000 before this ends, just in case the clear occurs. Also, I did actually start another character, he's RL100 level 1022 or something, I'm hoping to get him to 1500 too

Will you please elaborate on what exactly you would need as an admin to provide more entertaining quests, etc?

I posted in the Staff forum and the PCRPG 3.36 thread. My main hope was for an oncontact command that can be set on both players and .dis objects.

I think it might be best to start everyone off the same and at some point (say, level 20 on RL0) allow a player to choose a more specialized class with its own abilities and such.

A good idea, I'll add it to the class ideas post I'm going to make in the Dev forum.

Actually, being level 1500 wasn't intended to be possible in the first place.  The reason that levels stop there is that the function which computes level based on exp is a loop

That would appear to explain that, then!

They all say they will and then I never hear from them again.  I don't have the time or talent to do it all myself.  Heck, even game programming is outside of my strong area.  I primarily write database and communications software.  I can't do modeling at all, and I don't have the time to stay sharp at making prefabs, terrains, or maps.  If anything is to happen here, folks, I will need cooperation from people who can and are willing to do these things.

I'm here and ready to serve. I have a few years of general programming experience and quite a bit of the past couple years I have been scripting for Tribes.

Portal is also a surprisingly emotional experience.

Speaking of Portal, Plasmatic has a working version for Tribes. It's quite amazing, that man has done things to Tribes that you couldn't get a stripper to do to you if you had Bill Gates' budget.

[Dyre]

I think it's a good idea.  It will clean the slate, and give a great opportunity for an overhaul of the server.  We might be able to take a step back, and figure out how we can solve a few of the issues on the server, such as the lack of players, the constant AFK players, and the contesting over high level zones.  Zones that are hardly ever used, or simply redundant, could be removed in favor of different zones, or simply freeing up the server load.

The benefits of a clear definitely outweigh the detriments.

Edit:

After reading the previous posts, I totally agree with implementing new things.  I'd be all for client side downloads as well, but that could prove a problem for new players, since they'd have to come here to download more files.  Still, modding even further to where it might require players to download more would allow more freedom with any changes that you'd like to make.

Differentiating the classes even more is a wonderful idea.  Something simpler could be an automatic innate bonus to the various skills a player has.  Mages would do more damage with magic than any other class, but take a hit to their weapon skills and hp.  While fighters would be able to hit harder with weapons and have higher HP, but have gimped magic.  Of course, completely separate classes would rock, and I'd be all for it.  It could help with griefers a bit, and encourage players to create multiple characters.  You want to steal?  You need to make a thief.  But that thief can't use magic, nor can he bash.  You want to bash?  You need to make a warrior, but that warrior can't teleport around, nor can he heal himself.  It would be awesome.

I also think something should be done about the remorting.  An idea I had would be a little redundant, but would add an extra layer to the game.  Not only can you remort at level 101, but at RL 101, you can ascend or whatever you want to call it.  You lose your remort level and skill points, but you gain the ability to use higher level skills and armor.  Of course, again, where would it end?

A few other changes I've thought of mainly focus on the problem with the griefing of noobs.  A mentor system would be cool, where a player of a certain remort level could take on a single student.  The mentor could gain mentor points with which they could buy special items, simply by having a student level up.  Players could "graduate" at RL 10, at which point they could no longer be taken on as a student.  It would encourage higher level players to help lowbies level, because they'd gain mentor points faster if their student leveled faster.  Something would have to be implemented though, to prevent a mentor from jumping from student to student.  Maybe they could only accept a player as a student once?  Than if they dismiss a student, they won't be able to take them on again?  Special items could include things that are perishable, to make sure that mentors are constanly encouraged to take on new students.

Blah....

I could go on forever.  I'm going to stop now.  Let all of that rant be absorbed (or ignored).

[NiGhTmArE]

I don't like the idea of a clear, and I will most likely not return if it happend, and I feel it would be bad to the server because I know of quite a few people who would not return either, some of the more respected people too... I jsut think a clear at this time now might cause server destruction...

[KoRo]

I'm just throwing this out of the blue here, but what if you did a trial-clear? That is...

Back up every char file that has been active within the last X time period, and then clear everyone. Leave the server like that for whatever trial period you feel would give accurate results. If you see little to no growth within that period, then restore everyone's old character back to the way they were.

I realize that if you did restore everyone else, then all the new guys who joined during the trial would be put in the same unfair position that we're discussing here. I suppose that will have to be an arbitrary decision on your part.

[bungle]

Then, when you do finally manage to move them or get them out of the way, they come back and kill you off, steal everything you have ect ect.

Not really an issue that's going to be solved by clearing. You're always going to have jerks that do that.

A cap on the RL you can gain.

And what does the player do once they've hit that point? Max out to the max level? Then what? The remort system is a very good system: it means there is no 'end game' as the player can constantly improve himself. If you don't give players that opportunity they will need constant content updates or they will end up quitting.

Possibly more zones or a variety of things done to the map to make it "larger" for more zones.

We don't need a different map (not that I'm adverse to that idea) or a clear to do that. Corona has created three new zones, one of which has become permanent.

I remember a server long ago that had a teleport to an entirely different world map with it's own zones effectively doubling the map size

Or maybe not so long ago. It's called Sinister's Wasteland and Iceworld. I've already proposed an idea to extend

gameplay that could work very well if proper

ly implemented.

An afk check bot. Periodically, the bot send you a tell that you see. All you need do is say something in global to let it know your there. If you dont reply within a set period of time, you get booted from server.

It would take about 5 minutes to script around that.

I vote maybe. It depends: are we going to see some significant changes? If yes, then I vote yes. If no, then I vote n

o. I'd hate to see my 2500+ remorts go down the drain for no gain at all. I wouldn't quit, but I'd be disapp

ointed.

Changes I'd like to see implemented:
-More admin optionp

s. I've been pulling for this for a while, but it can only be a good thing! Giving us more commands to

play with will significantly increase the diversity of the quests we can create and entertain the players with.

-Major class overhaul. As it stands, the only difference between the classes is how quickly they can level up to about RL20 when they all become completely indistinguishable. 90% of noobs choose Mage when they st

art out, not realizing that it's the hardest class to start out as. Then, by the time they figure it out, they al

so figure out that the Ranger, Fighter, and Thief is exactly the same as they are.

Things that would be nice to see to differentiate the classes: class-only skills and weapons. I've got a few cool ideas I can put up if the decision ultimately comes to make these changes.

-Weapon/Item overhaul. This is something that's been asked for before, remove rusties and small stones. They serve no real purpose, it's impossible to make any real money selling them and all they do is kill noobs by weighing them down and take up item slots.

-Maxing out changes. I like the ability to decide between spending your time maxing out or remorting. But it takes way too long to get to the max level. I know it's not supposed to be an easy thing, but, -shannara- has been at it for over a year and he's only just now coming close to getting to level 1500 after mining nearly 24/7.

To sum up: I vote yes if we can see some significant changes. I vote no if there will be no significant changes. I won't quit either way.

I vote yes because I might be able to remort without getting raped.